Frequent System crashes, SLOW - iCCP:CRC error ?

[John D]

My wife has an old Dell Intel x86 system, Windows 98, 2nd edition version
4.10.2222A, 128MB RAM. Admittedly this is an almost extinct dinosaur, but it
does what my wife needs to do. She's a prolific writer, but very, very few
pieces longer than 5 pages in Word (articles). And she does lots of email
with Outlook Express. Her applications just don't apply much pressure on the
system.

Over the past month she's had frequent "crashes" - I haven't observed a lot
of them but I think it isn't the blue screen of death - I think the
application crashes. It can be Word, Outlook Express. It sometimes takes "5
minutes" (perhaps a slight exageration) for a Word document to load (Norton
is not configured to scan each file she opens - my attempt to avoid this
problem).

Every time Windows boots (or reboots) there is an error message: "iCCP:CRC"
- that's it. "Cyclic redundancy check" seems more of a "method" of finding
errors rather than notice of any specific type of error (?). When I Googled
this error I got loads of registry scanner types telling me I needed to run a
registry scanner. When I looked in the Windows 98 "registry issues"
discussion group people way smarter than me said don't ever use those things!

Seems to me the problem isn't with any particular application because the
same type of problem (crashing, very slow) occurs in several applications.

Suggestions are most greatfully appreciated (I'm afraid she's going to do
that "shoot the lawn mower" thing some guy did yesterday).

Thanks - John D

[Gary S. Terhune[_2_]]

If she "shoots the lawn mower", PLEASE take video, <g>! I recommend a 4-10
shotgun or an RPG.

What version of Norton is she running? Norton doesn't run on Windows 98 any
more, or rather, it isn't getting any updates. It hasn't for a long time. It
should be properly uninstalled using Add/Remove Programs, and then the Clean
Up Tool should be run. If her version is 2003 or newer, here's the Tool:
http://service1.symantec.com/Support/tsgeninfo.nsf/docid/2005033108162039

Otherwise, read this:
http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/nip.nsf/docid/2001090510510636

Before actually doing anything, read this:
"Clean Boot -- What it is and why you need it."
http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm

Pay particular attention to the need to re-enable startup items, *without*
restarting the computer, after setting up the Clean Boot and before
UNinstalling anything. This is so the uninstaller can find the startup entry
and delete it. (Actually, I should edit that to apply to all procedures.)
The Clean Boot procedure also includes several manual clean-up chores that
may improve performance.

To replace Norton I recommend Avast. Other security items and resources are
mentioned in my article "Security!"
http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm

After doing the above, please report back with the results.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com

"John D" > wrote in message
...
> My wife has an old Dell Intel x86 system, Windows 98, 2nd edition version
> 4.10.2222A, 128MB RAM. Admittedly this is an almost extinct dinosaur, but
> it
> does what my wife needs to do. She's a prolific writer, but very, very few
> pieces longer than 5 pages in Word (articles). And she does lots of email
> with Outlook Express. Her applications just don't apply much pressure on
> the
> system.
>
> Over the past month she's had frequent "crashes" - I haven't observed a
> lot
> of them but I think it isn't the blue screen of death - I think the
> application crashes. It can be Word, Outlook Express. It sometimes takes
> "5
> minutes" (perhaps a slight exageration) for a Word document to load
> (Norton
> is not configured to scan each file she opens - my attempt to avoid this
> problem).
>
> Every time Windows boots (or reboots) there is an error message:
> "iCCP:CRC"
> - that's it. "Cyclic redundancy check" seems more of a "method" of finding
> errors rather than notice of any specific type of error (?). When I
> Googled
> this error I got loads of registry scanner types telling me I needed to
> run a
> registry scanner. When I looked in the Windows 98 "registry issues"
> discussion group people way smarter than me said don't ever use those
> things!
>
> Seems to me the problem isn't with any particular application because the
> same type of problem (crashing, very slow) occurs in several applications.
>
> Suggestions are most greatfully appreciated (I'm afraid she's going to do
> that "shoot the lawn mower" thing some guy did yesterday).
>
> Thanks - John D

[John D]

Gary

First free hour I've had when wife wasn't using computer.

Re Norton Antivirus - I ran Live Update, it went through all that stuff it
does, said completed updating and all components are up to date. NAV
indicates Virus Definitions were downloaded 7/30/08, and that her paid
subscription is through 7/11/09!

Automatic Update is On - don't know how often it runs, but it runs.

Is NAV telling us that it is downloading up to date virus definitions when
it isn't?

I attempted to find out if they are not updating NAV 2003 virus definitions
for Windows98 on their website - but boy is that a
poorly-designed-functioning website!

Thanks - John D

[Gary S. Terhune[_2_]]

http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/security/Content/Product/Product_NIS.html
They're still providing the Updates, it would appear. But whether they
provide updates or not, Norton Products are notorious for slowing a machine
significantly. You should really convince her to immediately switch to
Avast! (after uninstalling Norton and using the Removal Tool).

After that, see my Clean Boot article:
http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm

Before going through all those procedures, download the apps mentioned in
the companion article, "Security!"
http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm Install them and Update them, but
don't bother to run the scans.

Now go back to the CleanBoot article, cleaning up the system and otherwise
prepping for a Clean Boot, then run full scans with everything. It will take
a long while. Once finished, restore a Normal boot and see how the system
acts. If still sluggish, there's more to do.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com

"John D" > wrote in message
...
>
> Gary
>
> First free hour I've had when wife wasn't using computer.
>
> Re Norton Antivirus - I ran Live Update, it went through all that stuff it
> does, said completed updating and all components are up to date. NAV
> indicates Virus Definitions were downloaded 7/30/08, and that her paid
> subscription is through 7/11/09!
>
> Automatic Update is On - don't know how often it runs, but it runs.
>
> Is NAV telling us that it is downloading up to date virus definitions when
> it isn't?
>
> I attempted to find out if they are not updating NAV 2003 virus
> definitions
> for Windows98 on their website - but boy is that a
> poorly-designed-functioning website!
>
> Thanks - John D

[Dan]

Please consider removing Norton which I do not currently like because it has
become so bloated.

If you need an antivirus solution, current suggestions include AVG 7.5 which
I use but it is on life support because it soon should be transitioning into
non-supported status in August for free version and end of the year for paid
version.

I cannot suggest AVG 8 because of false positives and of course it is not
supported in Windows 98.

My Current Solution is: <MCS>

1. Is a router <with changed default settings and changed default password>
and fully updated with the latest firmware,

2. software firewall <debate as to which is best for Windows 98 Second
Edition>

3. antivirus <again debated which is best but current suggestion is Avast
but beware of its overly aggressive in my opinion scanning like when it
flagged Yahoo.com as having malware when it did not>

4. extremely important in this day and age of web surfing and baddies
floating around in the Clouds <aka Cyberspace, Matrix, etc.> shall we say
<grin>

anti-spyware <currently like and suggest Spybot Search and Destroy, not
Ad-ware because of too many false positives in the past, SpywareBlaster
<great program to stop baddies from getting on to your system>, rest of them
are currently up for debate imo.

5. Any other comments about securing a Windows 98 Second Edition safely are
welcome. Please also see if you want a lot of technical stuff: the microsoft
white-page on this available at:

http://support.microsoft.com/gp/msim_win98

[John D]

Gary - Decided to wait until today when I could clear the decks and prepare
for an extended engagement - and eventually ran into a problem.

I read all your stuff (thanks - very helpful). Decided I wanted to know a
bit more about removing Norton and wound up at "Ask Dave Taylor" where he had
a very detailed set of "Remove Norton" instructions - going into the registry
in lots of places, ... - I liked it.

I downloaded the Avast free version and saved it, intending to install Avast
after I had done diagnostics in the Clean Boot environment. I then
disconnected our cable internet connection.

I removed Norton based on Dave's instructions.

I then established the Clean Boot environment per your instructions.

Then I started a "Thorough Disk Scan" - and, it's been stuck on cluster
21,953 out of ~1.2 million for nearly an hour.

I assume a conclusion of a "bad sector" is not out of order. What I don't
understand is why the test would just freeze rather than say "bad sector" and
go on?

My guess is the next step is to make sure complete back ups are done, wipe
the disk clean, reinstall the operating system, then the data - on the
assumption that reformating would isolate the bad sectors.

Do you think it's time for this nuclear option? Or maybe reboot in Safe Mode
and try the test again? Or ...

Thanks - John D

[John D]

Well ... it just got a lot worse.

I rebooted after ScanDisk hung on that sector. Windows came up fine - still
in "Clean Boot" mode I assume.

Went into MSCONFIG - enabled Normal Startup.

Rebooted.

But - still didn't have antivirus.

Clicked the Avast install icon - Avast installed.

Rebooted so Avast would take effect.

Windows started to boot - then just shut off. Tried again - shut off again.

Entered Safe Mode - choose the boot windows with prompts. Said yes to
everything - it got to msmouse.??? - I said yes - had a blinking cursor for
maybe 20 seconds - showed the windows background color briefly, went back to
a cursor - then shut off. Did this a couple of times.

Tried again - said N to msmouse.??? - same thing happened.

Went to the old MS DOS prompt - amazing what I remembered even though I
haven't bounced around in DOS for - geez - 10 years at least - maybe 15.
(Probably 20)

I was going to go erase the Avast ".exe" files - but remembered that you
have to uninstall programs through Windows.

So - here I sit. The computer is shutting itself off without getting to a
"usable" spot in Windows. I can load the command prompt, but don't know how
to help from that point.

About to decide it's time for a new computer and system (didn't want to do
that right now) - and copy data files, address books, favorites, etc. off the
old hard drive (not all her work was backed up).

Can you think of anything else?

Sorry - thanks - John D

[Dan]

Okay, please feel free to email me at

Just remove the ro,87,8,b and you should be all set. It will be quicker to
diagnose your issue by email rather than clutter the 98 general newsgroup. I
am prepared for email spam again --- Yipee Kai Aye Mother____er to all the
spammers and spybot networks and bring it on. You can tell I am a Danimal
and crazy to boot -- LOL



"John D" wrote:

> Well ... it just got a lot worse.
>
> I rebooted after ScanDisk hung on that sector. Windows came up fine - still
> in "Clean Boot" mode I assume.
>
> Went into MSCONFIG - enabled Normal Startup.
>
> Rebooted.
>
> But - still didn't have antivirus.
>
> Clicked the Avast install icon - Avast installed.
>
> Rebooted so Avast would take effect.
>
> Windows started to boot - then just shut off. Tried again - shut off again.
>
> Entered Safe Mode - choose the boot windows with prompts. Said yes to
> everything - it got to msmouse.??? - I said yes - had a blinking cursor for
> maybe 20 seconds - showed the windows background color briefly, went back to
> a cursor - then shut off. Did this a couple of times.
>
> Tried again - said N to msmouse.??? - same thing happened.
>
> Went to the old MS DOS prompt - amazing what I remembered even though I
> haven't bounced around in DOS for - geez - 10 years at least - maybe 15.
> (Probably 20)
>
> I was going to go erase the Avast ".exe" files - but remembered that you
> have to uninstall programs through Windows.
>
> So - here I sit. The computer is shutting itself off without getting to a
> "usable" spot in Windows. I can load the command prompt, but don't know how
> to help from that point.
>
> About to decide it's time for a new computer and system (didn't want to do
> that right now) - and copy data files, address books, favorites, etc. off the
> old hard drive (not all her work was backed up).
>
> Can you think of anything else?
>
> Sorry - thanks - John D
>
>

[Gary S. Terhune[_2_]]

Did you simply try Safe Mode before trying Step-by-Step?

Did you try a different mouse?

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com

"John D" > wrote in message
...
> Well ... it just got a lot worse.
>
> I rebooted after ScanDisk hung on that sector. Windows came up fine -
> still
> in "Clean Boot" mode I assume.
>
> Went into MSCONFIG - enabled Normal Startup.
>
> Rebooted.
>
> But - still didn't have antivirus.
>
> Clicked the Avast install icon - Avast installed.
>
> Rebooted so Avast would take effect.
>
> Windows started to boot - then just shut off. Tried again - shut off
> again.
>
> Entered Safe Mode - choose the boot windows with prompts. Said yes to
> everything - it got to msmouse.??? - I said yes - had a blinking cursor
> for
> maybe 20 seconds - showed the windows background color briefly, went back
> to
> a cursor - then shut off. Did this a couple of times.
>
> Tried again - said N to msmouse.??? - same thing happened.
>
> Went to the old MS DOS prompt - amazing what I remembered even though I
> haven't bounced around in DOS for - geez - 10 years at least - maybe 15.
> (Probably 20)
>
> I was going to go erase the Avast ".exe" files - but remembered that you
> have to uninstall programs through Windows.
>
> So - here I sit. The computer is shutting itself off without getting to a
> "usable" spot in Windows. I can load the command prompt, but don't know
> how
> to help from that point.
>
> About to decide it's time for a new computer and system (didn't want to do
> that right now) - and copy data files, address books, favorites, etc. off
> the
> old hard drive (not all her work was backed up).
>
> Can you think of anything else?
>
> Sorry - thanks - John D
>
>

[Gary S. Terhune[_2_]]

"John D" > wrote in message
...
> Gary - Decided to wait until today when I could clear the decks and
> prepare
> for an extended engagement - and eventually ran into a problem.
>
> I read all your stuff (thanks - very helpful). Decided I wanted to know a
> bit more about removing Norton and wound up at "Ask Dave Taylor" where he
> had
> a very detailed set of "Remove Norton" instructions - going into the
> registry
> in lots of places, ... - I liked it.

Do you have a link to that page? I'm not familiar with the site or the
author, so I have no comment., but was that *after* running the proper
Removal Tool? I, personally, wouldn't trust the manual removal instructions
listed there (pretty standard stuff) to find all of Registry entries and
files belonging to Norton.

> I downloaded the Avast free version and saved it, intending to install
> Avast
> after I had done diagnostics in the Clean Boot environment. I then
> disconnected our cable internet connection.
>
> I removed Norton based on Dave's instructions.
>
> I then established the Clean Boot environment per your instructions.
>
> Then I started a "Thorough Disk Scan" - and, it's been stuck on cluster
> 21,953 out of ~1.2 million for nearly an hour.
>
> I assume a conclusion of a "bad sector" is not out of order. What I don't
> understand is why the test would just freeze rather than say "bad sector"
> and
> go on?

Did you simply try running it again? Maybe it was s simple case of freezing.
Are you running scandisk with any "auto-fix" options enabled? Because that's
not a good idea unless you have already performed a full backup. Scandisk
can easily scramble a disk if certain conditions apply. Once you've got a
good, complate backup, you can then run scandisk with all auto-repair
options enabled and see what happens. Or, I've found another disk test tool
that will provide more info than scandisk. As far as I know, formatting
simply runs a Thorough scandisk after creating the file system. I woulnd't
go that far yet. There are other tests that can be done. Interestingly, an
old version of Norton Disk Doctor (ndd.exe) is one of the best. I'm pretty
sure I have that around here somewhere, or maybe it can be found on the net.

How large is the hard disk? Which version of Win98 is it? Original or Second
Edition?

> My guess is the next step is to make sure complete back ups are done, wipe
> the disk clean, reinstall the operating system, then the data - on the
> assumption that reformating would isolate the bad sectors.

What backup tool do you use? What media do you back up to? I recommend an
imaging type of backup program and saving the backup to a different hard
drive (not just another partition on teh same drive.) Or an external drive.
There are free ways to do this imaging.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com

[Gary S. Terhune[_2_]]

I think that HDD is on its way out and you shouldn't mess with it anymore
until you copy off all the files. I don't know what other computer equipment
you have, but I would take that HDD out of that machine, install it into
another machine (preferably Win9x, so that the OS doesn't write to the
drive) and copy off all files using XCOPY (which, with the proper switches,
will not stop when it hits an error.) My guess is that the machine is so old
that most of my usual tricks wouldn't work. No native USB 2 that will let
you connect an external HD for copying over, for instance.

I'd say get another HD and put it into the machine, but then you have to
deal with what sizes and configurations BIOS will support. Do you have a
make/model for the machine

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com

"John D" > wrote in message
...
> Well ... it just got a lot worse.
>
> I rebooted after ScanDisk hung on that sector. Windows came up fine -
> still
> in "Clean Boot" mode I assume.
>
> Went into MSCONFIG - enabled Normal Startup.
>
> Rebooted.
>
> But - still didn't have antivirus.
>
> Clicked the Avast install icon - Avast installed.
>
> Rebooted so Avast would take effect.
>
> Windows started to boot - then just shut off. Tried again - shut off
> again.
>
> Entered Safe Mode - choose the boot windows with prompts. Said yes to
> everything - it got to msmouse.??? - I said yes - had a blinking cursor
> for
> maybe 20 seconds - showed the windows background color briefly, went back
> to
> a cursor - then shut off. Did this a couple of times.
>
> Tried again - said N to msmouse.??? - same thing happened.
>
> Went to the old MS DOS prompt - amazing what I remembered even though I
> haven't bounced around in DOS for - geez - 10 years at least - maybe 15.
> (Probably 20)
>
> I was going to go erase the Avast ".exe" files - but remembered that you
> have to uninstall programs through Windows.
>
> So - here I sit. The computer is shutting itself off without getting to a
> "usable" spot in Windows. I can load the command prompt, but don't know
> how
> to help from that point.
>
> About to decide it's time for a new computer and system (didn't want to do
> that right now) - and copy data files, address books, favorites, etc. off
> the
> old hard drive (not all her work was backed up).
>
> Can you think of anything else?
>
> Sorry - thanks - John D
>
>

[PCR]

John D wrote:
| Well ... it just got a lot worse.
|
| I rebooted after ScanDisk hung on that sector. Windows came up fine -
| still in "Clean Boot" mode I assume.
|
| Went into MSCONFIG - enabled Normal Startup.
|
| Rebooted.
|
| But - still didn't have antivirus.
|
| Clicked the Avast install icon - Avast installed.
|
| Rebooted so Avast would take effect.
|
| Windows started to boot - then just shut off. Tried again - shut off
| again.
|
| Entered Safe Mode - choose the boot windows with prompts. Said yes to
| everything - it got to msmouse.??? - I said yes - had a blinking
| cursor for maybe 20 seconds - showed the windows background color
| briefly, went back to a cursor - then shut off. Did this a couple of
| times.
|
| Tried again - said N to msmouse.??? - same thing happened.
|
| Went to the old MS DOS prompt - amazing what I remembered even though
| I haven't bounced around in DOS for - geez - 10 years at least -
| maybe 15. (Probably 20)
|
| I was going to go erase the Avast ".exe" files - but remembered that
| you have to uninstall programs through Windows.
|
| So - here I sit. The computer is shutting itself off without getting
| to a "usable" spot in Windows. I can load the command prompt, but
| don't know how to help from that point.
|
| About to decide it's time for a new computer and system (didn't want
| to do that right now) - and copy data files, address books,
| favorites, etc. off the old hard drive (not all her work was backed
| up).
|
| Can you think of anything else?

That sounds like a horrible mess. Going by the following article, it may
be worth a try to extract a new Wininit.exe...

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;141898&Product=w98
Windows 95/98 Boots Directly to "Shut Down" Screen

........Quote of article............
SYMPTOMS
When you start your computer, you may see the following message:

It's now safe to turn off your computer
This behavior can occur in any mode.

CAUSE
This behavior can occur if the Vmm32.vxd or Wininit.exe file is missing
or damaged.

RESOLUTION
To resolve this issue, follow these steps:

1. To Obtain a New Copy of the Wininit.exe File
Extract a new copy of the Wininit.exe file from your original Windows
95/98 disks or CD-ROM to the Windows folder. In Windows 95, the
Wininit.exe file is located in the Win95_11.cab cabinet file on the
Windows 95 CD-ROM or disk 11 of your original Windows 95 disks.

(In Win98SE, it's in WIN98_47.CAB... PCR.)

For more information about using the Extract tool, click Start, point to
Programs, click MS-DOS prompt, type extract, and then press ENTER.

For additional information about using the Extract tool, please see the
following article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;129605
129605 How to Extract Original Compressed Windows Files

2. Restart the computer.

NOTE: If you installed Windows 95 from a CD-ROM, you may need to enable
the Mscdex.exe line in the Autoexec.bat file or reinstall the real-mode
CD-ROM drivers included with the CD-ROM drive before you can reinstall
Windows 95. After you enable the real-mode CD-ROM drivers, repeat step 1
to restart the computer.

To Re-Create the Vmm32.vxd File

1. Restart your computer. For Windows 95, when you see the "Starting
Windows 95" message, press the F8 key, and then choose Command Prompt
Only from the Startup menu. For Windows 98, press and hold down the CTRL
key after your computer completes the Power On Self Test (POST), and
then choose Command Prompt Only from the Startup menu.

2. Type the following line to change to the Windows\System folder:
cd \windows\system

3. Type the following line:
ren vmm32.vxd vmm32.old

4. Reinstall Windows 95/98.

(I guess it will want to go to "C:\Windows.000", but you must direct it
to "C:\Windows". PCR.)

NOTE: If you installed Windows 95 from a CD-ROM, you may need to enable
the Mscdex.exe line in the Autoexec.bat file or reinstall the real-mode
CD-ROM drivers included with the CD-ROM drive before you can reinstall
Windows 95. After you enable the real-mode CD-ROM drivers, repeat step 1
to restart the computer.

MORE INFORMATION
A Vmm32.vxd file is included on the Windows 95 disks and CD-ROM.
Extracting this version of the file does not solve the problem, as it is
an incomplete version of the file. You must run Setup to re-create a
system-specific Vmm32.vxd file.

If Advanced Configuration and Power Interface (ACPI) is enabled in your
computer's Basic Input/Output System (BIOS), the "It's now safe to turn
off your computer" message may not be displayed when you shut down
Windows 95/98.

If this article does not describe your shutdown-related issue, please
see the following Microsoft Web site to view more articles about
shutting down Windows 98:

The information in this article applies to:
Microsoft Windows 95
........End of quote.................

| Sorry - thanks - John D

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
Should things get worse after this,
PCR